Robert, so good to have you here. I’m excited to get to talk to you about Stonewall.

Robert Kesten:
Thank you very much. It’s my pleasure to be here.

Bob Wheeler:
So Robert, you’re the executive director of Stonewall National Museum and Archives. Can you tell us a little bit about…

Robert Kesten:
Stonewall National Museum, Archives and Library.

Bob Wheeler:
Oh, shit. I can’t say that again. Okay, let me write it down, because it’s not written that way. It’s Stonewall National. Okay,

Robert Kesten:
National Museum, Archives and Library.

Bob Wheeler:
perfect. All right, we’ll just start from scratch.

Robert Kesten:
Take two.

Bob Wheeler:
Take two. Robert, so excited to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

Robert Kesten:
It’s my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

Bob Wheeler:
So you are the executive director of Stonewall National Museum, Archives, and Library. That’s a mouthful. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and the work you do at Stonewall?

Robert Kesten:
Sure, I’ve worked extensively in human rights, equal rights around the world. And here at Stonewall, I’m the expert, or at least the, I do all things, I don’t know how well, but I do it all. So I’ve been curating, I’ve been fundraising, I have been public relationsing, and just about everything else under the sun here.

And it’s… Even with my experience around the world, it’s still been a learning experience and very exciting because these are interesting times since we’re based in Florida. It’s been extraordinarily interesting.

Bob Wheeler:
I can only imagine. And how did you get your start in, um, human rights? Like not that we shouldn’t all be involved and aware of human rights, but how did it become your passion?

Robert Kesten:
When I was quite young, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy were both assassinated. And when Martin Luther King was assassinated, the first thing that upset me was that I really didn’t know very much about him or remember really hearing about him.

And yet he was a monumental figure even at a very young age. So when he was killed, my mother took me to an organization that was based in a community near ours, but yet very separate. And there I met a wonderful woman who ran this place called the Open Door Center.

And she introduced me into an entire world that I didn’t know about. And she said that I could be helpful as a young child by helping raise some money so kids could go to summer camp. And so

Bob Wheeler:
Thank

Robert Kesten:
I went

Bob Wheeler:
you.

Robert Kesten:
from store to store to get things that we could raffle off. We were going to have a community fair. I organized the students in my school and everybody brought things to. either sell or things to show off or things to trade. And so what happened was as I went store to store, there were stores that threw me out because I was trying to help this community center.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
And here I was at that time, my hair was practically white. I have blue eyes and I was getting thrown out. So I could only imagine what it was like for people who were different.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. And in your own growing up, was it a pretty, did your folks talk about money, talk about status, all those kinds of things? Were these conversations that were had or was just like you’re discovering this on your own?

Robert Kesten:
Well, I don’t know if they were conversations per se, but it was very clear that a certain amount of status was important because of the cars my parents went from and what they went to, where we got our clothes from, where we went for vacations.

When we were very young, we went to certain places. When we got older and their businesses developed more, we went to different places. So yeah, it was… unsaid but very evident.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah. What would you say your relationship with money is today? Nonprofits not known to make the seven figure numbers.

Robert Kesten:
No.

Bob Wheeler:
So you’re not doing it to get rich, but what is your relationship? with money how do you see it?

Robert Kesten:
It’s interesting. I have had a like-hate relationship with money, certainly not a love-hate relationship. I never think of money as the important thing, and I understand money should be thought of as a tool, but at the same time, when you don’t have it, you become ever so much more aware of it.

And so my relationship with money is… Try not to spend it unless you have it and still don’t try to spend it because you might lose it. Because as you said, in the nonprofit world and I’ve also worked a bit in politics and even in that world, pay is not extraordinary and things change.

People get unelected, people don’t get reelected. In nonprofits, the desire to be supported by the public. can change like the wind. And

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
so from one year, you might have tons of supporters, and the next year they’ve moved on to something else. So you always have to be on guard and be cautious. And then especially in the nonprofit world, you’re dealing with other people’s money that they invested in you to do certain things. And one of them is not taking big salaries.

Bob Wheeler:
Right, right, go to the programs. Well, and so to that, to that end, what would you say are the primary goals of Stonewall?

Robert Kesten:
The primary goal of Stonewall is to collect and protect and share the vital stories, the materials, the history and culture of the LGBTQ plus community. In addition to that, it’s to try and tell every single human being’s story. Because what we want people to understand is that history is the compilation of everyone’s story. It isn’t just selected stories.

It isn’t just stories from one group or another. It is when we put all of them together and weave the most complicated and most beautiful quilt that we actually have every story in. As we take threads away, we’re actually hurting history because we’re not reporting it accurately or in content.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah. And what would you say are the biggest challenges that you face, um, in, in the work that you do?

Robert Kesten:
money.

Bob Wheeler:
Money. Which you’re, you’re a nonprofit. So people can donate to the

Robert Kesten:
Yes,

Bob Wheeler:
Stonewall.

Robert Kesten:
and please tell them to, please.

Bob Wheeler:
Please do,

Robert Kesten:
But yes,

Bob Wheeler:
please do.

Robert Kesten:
it is the single most difficult thing. We’re not always, to most people, the sexiest organization. We’re not going after politicians. We’re not going after businesses. We’re trying to tell the stories that put all of these things in context, historical

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
context, political context, social context, and cultural context. But collecting those things and sharing those things and displaying those things when there are crises doesn’t always seem as important, even though ultimately it is, because when you know where you come from, you know where you might be going. And that’s obviously very, very important.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, and I would imagine though, just like when you were helping out as a kid going door to door, not everybody’s going to throw open their doors when Stonewall comes asking for money. Some people might say, well, it’s not really relevant. It’s not necessary. It’s not my cup of tea. It’s not my experience. Therefore not that,

Robert Kesten:
Yes,

Bob Wheeler:
not that passionate about this.

Robert Kesten:
that happens. Also, there are people who just choose denial.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
So even if you go into the LGBTQ community to raise funds, there are those people, well, I’ve never had any of those experiences or those are not my people.

Bob Wheeler:
Right, right.

Robert Kesten:
So age range makes a big difference, but then where they’re involved, how they became involved. also will often determine where they give.

Bob Wheeler:
And for somebody listening out there that’s sort of like on the fence, why should we, um, why should we be invested in people that are different age than us, a different, uh, sexuality than us, a different gender than us, um, a different color than us, right? These others, um, why should we out there? Like, why is it important?

Robert Kesten:
For one thing, and it’s almost a cliche, we’re more alike than we are different. And the other side of that is that, especially with the LGBTQ plus community, we are everywhere. We are your brothers, your sisters, your aunts, your uncles, your neighbors, your friends, your school teachers, your police officers. So we are there. Unlike with racial prejudice, you can’t move away from it because you bring us with you.

We are there, just like your DNA. You can run from your problems, but they’re right there with you. Sort of like Peter Pan’s shadow. And therefore, when you invest in us, when you acknowledge us, when you accept us as yourself, as your own, the world becomes a little bit less hostile and certainly a lot more friendly.

And when the world is moving in that direction, we all get along much better. And we all know that it’s much smoother sailing. when people are getting along rather than when they’re fighting.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I know in this climate right now, there’s a lot of attempts to divide people and I think there’s a lot of resilience as well. So,

Robert Kesten:
tremendous amount of resilience.

Bob Wheeler:
when you talk about these stories that are archived, that can be shared, I would imagine just as there are some very tragic, horrific stories, there are also stories of courage, stories of just beautiful celebration humanity. Can you sort of tell us the breadth of the stories that you have?

Robert Kesten:
Oh, absolutely. And I agree. And the reality is that in this community, there are probably more stories of success than there are of failure. There may be individual failures and individual catastrophes, but collectively from before Stonewall through Stonewall, when a group of relatively young people that span the spectrum of the community. from the earliest trans people to cross dressers to cisgendered white males,

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
they all said no more to police brutality, no more to coming and invading our space. And from that moment, all these organizations started to spring up. And all of a sudden there were national organizations, statewide organizations, local organizations, taking care of the community. And then going into AIDS. You had the same thing. Oh no, what are we going to do? People are dying in record numbers.

And the community found a way to organize. And these are the stories that we hear over and over again. Marriage equality, serving in the military because people still love their country and still love their flag. So it’s important to remember that we don’t live under one flag.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
We live under multiple flags. And all of those flags, the best of them anyway, embrace everybody. And we don’t give up nationality, we don’t give up our patriotism, we don’t give up our religions because we are loving people who others may not want us to love. It is because we are a part of every community.

It is because we are everywhere that those are the stories that are told over and over and over again and they’re told collectively and individually. about how resilient this community is, how it learns from what happened, not only in the LGBT experience, but in the black experience, in the civil rights movement, in the labor movement, learning how to organize, as we see in the Jewish community and in other groups.

I mean, we have the benefit, because we’re a part of every community, that we get the best of every community to build our own liberation movement.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah. And. I’m curious, as you’re sharing that, I’m thinking about equity versus equality, equitable. And I’m wondering, it seems like in the past, and it’s always in almost any sector you go into, but even in the LGBTQ plus community, there may be a slight bias towards the cis white male.

There still may be some of the systemic pieces. that are reflected of society at large. And I’m wondering, as you go out and do the work that you do, is there that awareness of, we also have to step it up as well if we model equitable?

Robert Kesten:
There is no question that our community, just like the mainstream community of which we are a full integral integrated part of, must step up and recognize the inequality and inequities that exist. And that is why we at Stonewall have prioritized going out and giving voice to the marginalized communities within our marginalized community.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
to make sure that their voices are heard loud and clear. And we’ve dedicated actually a gallery space in the museum for one full year to tell those stories. And our hope is that at the end of that year, they will be so integrated and so much a part of the rest of the community in the eyes of those outside, the breakdowns that those stories will just be told in the mainstream museum.

And nobody will ever think, oh, they should be over there because they’re different. Our goal is to see it fully integrated. And slowly over that year, the exhibits that would have been just in that gallery will actually spread out through the entire museum.

And we’re hoping that will also increase the number of minority or marginalized communities within our community on committees, on the board, in other leadership positions. in terms of directing the organization for the future.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. I know within a couple of the nonprofits I’ve worked with getting people on the boards and all these things, again, economics can play into it. People not having the time, people having to take care of kids or whatever it might be. Like every step of the way there are obstacles. or things that make it difficult.

Robert Kesten:
And that’s why organizations have to meet the public where the public is. And it doesn’t mean that being on the board is perfect for everyone.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
It doesn’t mean that being the committee chair is perfect for everyone. But then you have to find other ways, like we’re creating a task force of artists and curators and others so that they can come and tell their stories on their terms in their way. And that will make a huge difference in their ability to participate within the organization, meeting it on their terms.

And so now we’re looking for grants that will allow us to pay those people to do their jobs, just like they would in any other sphere, and participate as equals with the equity that they need in order to be able to do it with the time that it takes to actually do it.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, no, that’s great. That’s great. Let me, I’m going to tie it back to you for a second, but then I want to pull it back to the bigger picture. I’m curious for you if you are aware of any ways that gender or sexuality impacted your relationship with money. And then I’m curious in the stories that you see in the archives and everything there at the museum, if you see any… themes around money, self-worth, sexuality, and any of that stuff. So I’m just, but I want to take it to you personally first, and if you’re willing to share.

Robert Kesten:
I mean, I don’t know if those were the things that dictated or influenced money. I certainly know that it was not acceptable to talk about those things when I was younger. And nobody did, not in the workplace, not in public. So maybe it did subconsciously because you weren’t as friendly or paled around with certain people. that were moving on up

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
in ways that you then didn’t because you didn’t participate. I also think that my choices, working for specific politicians, working on specific projects and whatnot might have stymied some of the economic opportunities had I gone into business or had I become a lawyer or a doctor or something other than a professional, nonprofit or political person.

And then looking at stories here, certainly for a lot of people, the stories on self-esteem, even if they were successful.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
were definitely obvious. So I think that we also have to divide self-esteem and self-worth from financial success because

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Robert Kesten:
many of them were financially successful but they lived in ghettos. They

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
kept themselves apart because they couldn’t afford for some of the other people that they had to deal with in real life to know intimately about them.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. With the museum, what are some of the new programs that you’re doing to bring in the youth, to bring in just more awareness, more, more eyes?

Robert Kesten:
Well, today we did a program that was affiliated with the National Educational Association, which is the nation’s largest union, and it was about the right and the freedom to learn. And we had groups representing young people here. So that was one thing that we’ve done. We’re also making a real effort in our exhibitions to talk about how resilient the community is.

and how you can learn from the past to influence the future, because these are trying times across the United States and around the world. But once again, so our exhibit shows those people who stand up, shows those groups that stand up. So we have an exhibit that includes materials from Ricky Martin, because Ricky Martin was a Latino male, very visible in a culture that didn’t look kindly. to being gay. And for a long time, he fought to protect his privacy. And at one point he said, I’m not doing this anymore. And he stood up and announced to the world.

And that was pretty brave, but it also opened the door for a lot of other people in his community, outside the LGBT community, his birth community, his fan base. And then we have another exhibit with Ellen DeGeneres. who came out on national TV, hurt her career, but she changed the transition or future for a lot of other people who then said, well, if she can do it, and she can do it to the entire world on television, then I certainly should be able to do it in my small community. And we have a lot of those people who demonstrated courage.

And then at the same time, we’re focused on the organization, some of which, are very powerful and young people are attracted to those organizations as well because those organizations give them hope that the future will be brighter, that these organizations are lobbying Congress, they’re lobbying at the state level, they’re involved in creating programs.

So all of these kinds of things that we’re doing really are to expand the pool of people who come in here that understand how exciting our community is that there are… all aspects of the rest of the world from the arts and culture to business to science to politics and it all rests in the LGBTQ community and very successfully.

Bob Wheeler:
No, absolutely. And do you like with for all this information you’re collecting, do you have a permanent place where everybody can go or like are the displays at different museums, are they on tour? Because I know that we talked about and so about like, it’d be great to have a permanent place and you don’t have a permanent place right now.

Robert Kesten:
Well, we do have a permanent place, but we have a permanent place that is impermanent in the sense that it’s not big enough to hold what we have and

Bob Wheeler:
Ah.

Robert Kesten:
allow us to do what we should be doing. So, yes, we have traveling exhibits and yes, we loan things out to other museums and institutions, but we have our own exhibits here, but we need a vastly enlarged space. So one thing that we are looking for is if someone wants their name on a building, they We are ready to do that for them. And it can be as big a building as they want. It can be as tall as they want.

Bob Wheeler:
Awesome.

Robert Kesten:
But yes, we definitely need support in order to ensure that the world’s largest LGBTQ library, one of the few that collects materials for archives on a national scale and a museum that then exhibits and makes those exhibits available. to other organizations and institutions across the country has the kind of home that allows us to grow and answer the needs of all the people who require what we do.

Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely. So listeners, if you can imagine a big building and it says your name here, send checks.

Robert Kesten:
And if they can’t do a whole building, we’ll take a bathroom.

Bob Wheeler:
We’ll take a bathroom. That works. That works. Well, Robert, we are at the… Let me just start that again. It’s a new transition. So sorry. Robert, it’s time to test your nerve. Test Your Nerve is brought to you by The Money Nerve.

If you are interested in learning more about your relationship with money, take our free quiz at testyournerve.com and see your responses to money and emotions. All right, we’re going to shift it up a little bit and let’s see what, let’s see what we get. Um, Robert, what’s the most unusual or memorable thing you ever spent money on?

Robert Kesten:
Oh, goodness. The most memorable or what?

Bob Wheeler:
Unusual.

Robert Kesten:
unusual. I am very frugal. I am very, very frugal. Most unusual thing I’ve ever spent money on.

Bob Wheeler:
You’re stumped.

Robert Kesten:
I am absolutely stumped. I spend money on as few things as humanly possible. I don’t know whatever I have bought that I would think is unusual. Maybe a book of some kind.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Robert Kesten:
I like books, but even that’s not extraordinarily unusual.

Bob Wheeler:
I, you’ll remember after, there’ll be something and you’ll go, ah, that was unusual. It’s all good. What was the, what’s the most valuable life lesson you’ve learned through your experiences with money?

Robert Kesten:
The most valuable experience that I’ve learned, even though I don’t always practice it, as we said in the beginning, that money is a tool to do things with, not to let money rule your life. And that’s something that I tried to remind myself of and relearn just about every day, that money cannot control you and you should never, ever, ever be afraid of it.

Because the most successful people in the world lose it and get it back and lose it again and get it back. And those of us who are a little bit more timid don’t get to enjoy things as much because that money sword hangs over our heads and it’s something that’s in our heads. It’s not reality.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. What’s one thing you wish you knew about money and emotions earlier in life?

Robert Kesten:
Exactly that. Don’t be

Bob Wheeler:
Ditto.

Robert Kesten:
not to not to be afraid of it. And

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Robert Kesten:
and for so long, I was paralyzed by if I bought a car or we bought a house or we did any of those things, that debt would destroy us when in reality, those kinds of things make your life better so you can do more. And when

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Robert Kesten:
you do more, the returns are far greater. So I think that had I known had I understood that. And it was interesting because when I grew up, my father was more like me, somewhat afraid of money for a lot of his life, not anymore, but he was for a long time. And my mother never was. And my mother experienced things in a way that I found unique and almost dangerous. And I wish I would have followed in that path with my mother a little bit more than the path that I took with my father.

Bob Wheeler:
A little more danger.

Robert Kesten:
Absolutely.

Bob Wheeler:
I know you’re frugal, but what’s one thing, no matter your financial situation, that you will splurge on?

Robert Kesten:
Something chocolate.

Bob Wheeler:
All right, dark or milk?

Robert Kesten:
Dark, the

Bob Wheeler:
Okay,

Robert Kesten:
darker

Bob Wheeler:
there we

Robert Kesten:
the

Bob Wheeler:
go.

Robert Kesten:
better.

Bob Wheeler:
All right, just making sure we can continue talking. It’s dark chocolate all the way.

Robert Kesten:
Anyone who tells me that milk chocolate is chocolate is off my list.

Bob Wheeler:
Agreed, agreed. What emotion do you experience most around money?

Robert Kesten:
and upset stomach.

Bob Wheeler:
Okay, that’s probably a lot of people, so that sounds appropriate. So we’re at our M&M spot, our money and motivation. That sweet spot. I’m wondering if you have a practical financial tip or a piece of wealth wisdom that you could share with our listeners.

Robert Kesten:
Well, I think that the best thing that I could ever say is don’t fear money. Take control of it. Know what you’re doing with it. Don’t let it control you. Don’t necessarily listen to all the pundits because for one thing, they all say different things. I mean, I hear Susie Orman says this and then other people say, don’t listen to Susie Orman and then

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
listen to this one and listen to that one. And nobody else can tell you. what is best for you. You have to learn that for yourself. But the only way you can learn it in a meaningful way is to understand it and not be afraid of it.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely right. Absolutely right. It’s uh, money does, makes us do crazy things and we have crazy stories, um, that are all

Robert Kesten:
Right,

Bob Wheeler:
in our

Robert Kesten:
I’m

Bob Wheeler:
head.

Robert Kesten:
not gonna be Warren Buffett, I know that. But I’m not going to be the homeless people that I see when I go out and walk in the morning either. So

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
I know that I feel false somewhere in the middle,

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Robert Kesten:
but the more fearful I am, the closer I get to the homeless person on the street, the braver

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Robert Kesten:
and more courageous I am, the more I get to Warren Buffett.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely.

Robert Kesten:
Well, maybe not.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, well, maybe let’s see.

Robert Kesten:
It’s nice to think that way anyway.

Bob Wheeler:
It’s absolutely that’s it’s a mindset. It’s good to think that way. Well, Robert, I, um, I so appreciate you spending the time with us. I know this is pride month, uh, stonewall and the work that you are doing. It’s so important that we have history and that we have accurate history. Um, and that we have the full history instead of just the narrative from the, from the mainstream or from the winners.

Um, it’s, it’s all important. And so I applaud what you’re doing. Um, hopefully listeners will, uh, get out their checkbooks or their Venmos or their Zels or whatever mediums that people have these days and, and send some money your way, um, where can people find more about the museum and yourself online, social media, all that.

Robert Kesten:
Everything is linked to the website, which is stonewall-museum.org. Anybody who wants to can look us up online. We’re on Facebook. We’re on Twitter. We’re on Instagram. We’re trying to figure out… TikTok before it’s illegal, or even if it is illegal, since who cares about that? And we’re there, we’re everywhere. We try to be everywhere, we try to be in the media.

Anybody can call, anybody can come. We are a public institution available to anyone who wants information, whether you call us on the phone, email us, or come and visit. Our galleries are open. everyone as well.

Bob Wheeler:
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Robert. Thanks for what you’re doing. Appreciate it. Keep doing the good works out in the community and we’ll be in touch.

Robert Kesten:
Well, and we’re looking for that money sign over our new

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah,

Robert Kesten:
building.

Bob Wheeler:
absolutely. Your name here.

Robert Kesten:
Right, yours.

Bob Wheeler:
Yours.

Robert Kesten:
Thank you. Thank you very, very much.

Bob Wheeler:
Thanks. Awesome.